SrWoodchuck Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Thanks for your input, @Valin! It's still la-dee-freakin-da....to me....as long as Muslims [the silent ones] allow other Muslims [the nasty ones] to perpetrate their global criminality. Yes the Church went through a Reformation.....Islam has not. They still kill you, because of any number of reasons. ..logical or not. Until the Majority of the [silent] Muslim world puts the a-hole Muslims in their place.....I'd like them kept at distance from me & mine.....just like any pretty pit viper. I'm through with this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pollyannaish Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 This is an amazing discussion and thank you for it. I have one question on the silence of more moderate forms of Islam. Is it possible that there are quite a few moderate Muslim voices trying to get through that are being silenced by the left, the media and the militant forms of Islam? I think if you start to look deeper into Egypt that is exactly what you see. Especially with this current uprising. The media and politicians have a stake in extremes. They are loud and obnoxious and give cover to manipulate power due to the conflict. We see the same thing in race relations, ideological conflicts and even the generation gap. The media and politicians do not like the search for common ground, because there is no story to tell. Are moderate Muslims struggling with the same frustrations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCTexan Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 I have one question on the silence of more moderate forms of Islam. Is it possible that there are quite a few moderate Muslim voices trying to get through that are being silenced by the left, the media and the militant forms of Islam? @pollyannish IMO it's possible but not probable... just about anything is theoretically possible. Let's just take a look at what we see here in the US... not Indonesia, Egypt or Bongo Bongo. The US has to be one of the best incubators for "moderation" in Islam. I am certain that if a "moderate" Muslim cleric from a Raleigh mosque asked to go on local TV to express his thoughts about a recent "In the name of Islam" atrocity... he would be seen and heard. I'm also certain that if a handful of Muslim men and women stood in front of the NC Capitol building with signs that said, "Not Our Islam".... it would be a front page item with interviews galore. BTW, when a Islamic terrorist ring was busted here a couple of years ago... we got quite a few Muslim voices in the news.... Everyone standing up for "fairness" for the "suspects" and talking about how their community is treated unfairly. No strong words against aberrant Muslim behavior or doctrine. I'd guarantee that a "news photo" like this would be front page news locally and probably nationally. ... and yes, I had to Photoshop it to get a message like this. BTW, here's the original image I found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valin Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Thanks for your input, @Valin! Yes the Church went through a Reformation.....Islam has not. Actually that is what is going on today, and has been to one degree or another since Napoleon Bonaparte invaded Egypt 1789. Until the Majority of the [silent] Muslim world puts the a-hole Muslims in their place.....I'd like them kept at distance from me & mine.....just like any pretty pit viper. I'm through with this thread. This is an understandable attitude, unfortunately its only a 14 hour flight from Kabul to Knoxville. So no matter how much we may want to ignore this its not going away. So the question is are we going to look at this as black and white, or are we going to look at it through the eyes of reality and history? Recognizing the problems but also noting the solutions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valin Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Ever ask yourself why there has not been a follow on attack to 9-11? Why so many plots have been broken up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCTexan Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Ever ask yourself why there has not been a follow on attack to 9-11? Why so many plots have been broken up? Nope! Ever ask yourself the why the "Mute Muslim Mainstream Majority" (M4) is the rule around here... I'm not talking about a hand full of people breaking into a jail in Indonesia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valin Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Ever ask yourself why there has not been a follow on attack to 9-11? Why so many plots have been broken up? Nope! Ever ask yourself the why the "Mute Muslim Mainstream Majority" (M4) is the rule around here... I'm not talking about a hand full of people breaking into a jail in Indonesia. Just for arguments sake, say what you are inferring is true. What do we do? In The Mean Time...some M4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCTexan Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Just for arguments sake, say what you are inferring is true. What do we do? Speak the truth... Recognize the facts... Be fair... Stop playing PC games with words... Don't be intimidated by political and social pressure... Recognize the world as it is versus as we wish it to be.... Demand the same response to atrocities as we would with any other religion (Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists). BTW... great picture of the M4 massing to protest atrocities "In the Name of Islam" around the world. Quite a show. I had either missed the event or misunderstood its focus. (was this a protest of the beheading of Daniel Pearl?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepper Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 This is an amazing discussion and thank you for it. I have one question on the silence of more moderate forms of Islam. Is it possible that there are quite a few moderate Muslim voices trying to get through that are being silenced by the left, the media and the militant forms of Islam? I think if you start to look deeper into Egypt that is exactly what you see. Especially with this current uprising. The media and politicians have a stake in extremes. They are loud and obnoxious and give cover to manipulate power due to the conflict. We see the same thing in race relations, ideological conflicts and even the generation gap. The media and politicians do not like the search for common ground, because there is no story to tell. Are moderate Muslims struggling with the same frustrations? @pollyannaish Interesting point. I expect that there are many kitchen tables / bedrooms were moderates fuss in private but remain silent in public. Imagine living in Berlin and being publicly opposed to Hitler in the 30s? It would not pay off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
righteousmomma Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Purely out of context but some observations that I have witnessed first hand: France and England have gigantic immigration problems. Without rehashing the economy, unemployment, inflation, HIGH taxes and crippling government mandated regulations against any employer from a small restaurant owner to a massive international company and all the other liberal social policies and practices from being Catholic and Anglican in name but secular in practice to amoralism run amok. The downward slide of Western civilization into secular humanism is accelerating daily. Do we really think that millions of adherents to faith in Allah and Mohammed are going to be reformed and become tolerant and accepting of us, of our wicked depraved society, of our God? If we cannot get an idiot liberal like Sally Kohn to see and understand Truth how on earth do we think masses of a world's religion will change into peace, love, brotherhood - and acceptance. I don't think so. One thing that does not change - no matter what garbage scientific evolutionists throw at us about the brain- is human nature and genetic tendencies. So back to the topic at hand and France and England - We witnessed first hand that France's Muslim population - mostly from North Africa - does not want to be assimilated. They tend to congregate together and want government benefits and privilege. Anger is a mild word for the rage that is consuming them. Witness the riots and car bombings over several years in Paris. Neither do the wealthier Muslims there want to assimilate into Parisian society and culture.. For just one minor example Muslims near our center/heart of Paris apartment demanded a separate swimming pool/bathing facilities at a local gym. A certain type of swimsuit for men is required (and though I agreed with them on this) they refused to wear it. Muslim women were interviewed in the newspaper often about why they liked the Burka or the other veils and they were incensed that anyone wanted them to go without a veil because to them it is protection and respect. No man's eyes can lust after them. They were incensed that Karen (can't recall last name from W's admin.) was trying to get them to drive a car. How dare she! These were well educated "modern" young European Muslim women studying medicine or practicing medicine. Everyday on the sidewalks of Paris I would see Muslim tourist families - women wearing the black head to toe robe with slits for eyes while husband and children skipped merrily along in Western designer clothes. Same at the beach where the black robed women would wade out into the surf to watch their children play in the waves. In England - again with huge immigration issues - think of all the Islamic/Muslim doctors who have been caught in terrorist activities on behalf of their cause. So here in our own country we have a huge number of black prison inmates becoming Muslims. Every day I see young black women and middle aged black women - probably raised as Christians - wearing the scarf. So what do we do? Is there hope? No 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geee Posted July 25, 2013 Author Share Posted July 25, 2013 @righteousmomma. Re: Muslim women - the debasing that they are used to by the male of the Muslim species occurred to me during the Huma 'stand by your man' moment for the second time. Admiration for this woman? I think not. She is conditioned by her upbringing to take whatever abuse is given her as being proper. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valin Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Just for arguments sake, say what you are inferring is true. What do we do? Speak the truth... Recognize the facts... Be fair... Stop playing PC games with words... Don't be intimidated by political and social pressure... Recognize the world as it is versus as we wish it to be.... Demand the same response to atrocities as we would with any other religion (Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists). BTW... great picture of the M4 massing to protest atrocities "In the Name of Islam" around the world. Quite a show. I had either missed the event or misunderstood its focus. (was this a protest of the beheading of Daniel Pearl?) Yes in fact you did miss what this and the original protests were/are about. The original was about the lack of freedom and the corruption of the Mubarak (Military) rule. This latest is about the Islamision (and incompetence) of Egypt under the MB. What will happen next? Not A Clue, and neither does anyone else really. I do suspect continuing...unrest ie. people killing each other. A small factoid to explain what is going on. Cairo has 30 million people, Egypt is broke (now America is broke I grant you but Egypt is BROKE know what I men?) There is about a one month supply of food left in Egypt, and they can't borrow any more money to buy and import food. Do the math...connect the dots. Its not a pretty picture. Egypt is important in that it is a microcosm of what is going on inside Islam. They are asking 2 questions 1. What The Hell Happened? (See Arab Human Development Report 2. What The Hell Do We Do About It? As for what happened to Danny Pearl? Here we see the Islamist answer to these questions. This is also why they won't win. The thing is understanding (real understanding) of what is going on takes some work, some reading/study often of articles/people we don't agree with. It requires stepping back and seeing the forest and not just the trees. We need to see what is really going on, a lot (we need to acknowledge and support the good remember Edmund Burke) of it bad, but also some of it good. Just like most of history...politics...whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCTexan Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 (real understanding) appears to be in the eyes of the beholder. I respect your views, study and conclusions... But I didn't just fall off a turnip truck and hope that you respect mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
righteousmomma Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 When all of us have had our say here and when all the understanding has been understood and when every tree in the forest has been counted, what is gonna be is gonna be. I am thankful we have writers like Daniel Pipes and I am thankful we have writers like Gellar and others. I do not see that they are in conflict or opposition. They address issues arising from different trees in the same forest - so to speak. We need more of each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
righteousmomma Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 @righteousmomma. Re: Muslim women - the debasing that they are used to by the male of the Muslim species occurred to me during the Huma 'stand by your man' moment for the second time. Admiration for this woman? I think not. She is conditioned by her upbringing to take whatever abuse is given her as being proper. Afraid so, Geee. I do not know Huma's motives but I do know something smells very fishy here and we are not in Denmark. (Then of course two of my (former) best friends informed me that keeping my husband's name - unlike them as feminists - means I am as in bondage as much so as wearing a burka. So who knows what goes through a woman's mind and her perspective.) On another note - while googling Huma and her deceased father's Muslim Brotherhood connection. I came across 2 articles that put this whole thread into perspective : The first is Huma's wiki bio. According to it the Republicans, like Michelle Bachman, who had questioned that Huma's father, brother and mother had Muslim Brotherhood connections and so there might be a conflict of interest etc were ALL in the wrong. The bio even quoted Boehner as saying Huma has sterling character and not to be blamed. Then I go to Human Events and read a totally different and (to me )perfectly reasonable and plausible reason for Bachman and several others to ask for an inquiry. Good read: http://www.humanevents.com/2012/07/23/the-huma-abedin-muslim-brotherhood-flap/ Btw somewhere when searching I read: "The Brotherhood’s motto reads, “Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. The Koran is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope.” If those are all supposed to be metaphorical references to internal spiritual struggles by a “largely secular” group, they’ve got the most metaphorical motto ever written." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valin Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 (real understanding) appears to be in the eyes of the beholder. I respect your views, study and conclusions... But I didn't just fall off a turnip truck and hope that you respect mine. Trying to explain the Why, I believe what I do. Like every one else after THAT DAY I was mad, I mean really pissed. I wanted someone to die, preferably slowly. Then after a week or so i started asking questions, Who did this/Why did they do it? Now I'm a historian, by that I mean I look at the world historically. Decades are very short periods. The picture started to emerge after a year(?), thanks to the likes of Bernard Lewis, Steve Emerson, Fatema Mernissi, and many others. Now it helps that I have an instinctive distrust of demagogues and people putting forth simplistic answers (in this case It's Islam...Islam is evil), I say this because one of the things history teaches us is things are rarely simple, and to really understand we need to dig down a little. (example The Crusades didn't happen because Th Pope wanted to liberate The Holy Land. He wanted to do something about all these Knights/Barrons running around fighting each other and killing peasants and generally making a mess of things.) What aggravates me is I (and others) see what is going on, and I don't understand why others don't. Because while it is complicated in the details, it is pretty simple in its broad outlines. There is a civil war inside Islam, and we (the non Muslims) have been dragged into it. The prize in this war is the opinion of the Muslim on the street. The good news is the Islamists/Salafits are going to lose (particularly the violent ones). I say this because their Ideology is completely negative and so it doesn't work. We see this in Egypt. a lot of People saying This Is Not What We Want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geee Posted July 25, 2013 Author Share Posted July 25, 2013 @righteousmomma. After the start of the first Gulf War, I took it upon myself to read the Koran I know a lot of people will answer by pointing out things in the Old Testament, but I don't think any of it cam pares - besides the New Testament is about Love. Maybe the 'other side' of the Muslims needs a new prophet to write a revised Koran - of course since you could not even copy the Koran until relatively recently under penalty of death, this prophet would be short-lived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
righteousmomma Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 I did the same, Geee. I found it online then. Quite long but worth the read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valin Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 @Geee @righteousmama I was talking to a guy a couple of years ago, he said something that I find true. Islam is a libertarian religion. You can pick a choose what you want to believe. Other that the "5 pillars of Islam". The problem comes, that you have those who say No! You have to accept every single thing and you have to view it the exact same way I do, otherwise.....off with your head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepper Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 There is a minor flaw with that thinking if I am not subscribing to the 5 pillars... @righteousmomma Christian Tragedy in the Muslim World by Bruce Thornton (Research Fellow and W. Glenn Campbell and Rita Ricardo-Campbell National Fellow, 2009–10, 2010–11)We are living through one of the largest persecutions of a religious group in history. Via Glenn Reynolds 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geee Posted July 25, 2013 Author Share Posted July 25, 2013 There is a minor flaw with that thinking if I am not subscribing to the 5 pillars... @righteousmomma Christian Tragedy in the Muslim World by Bruce Thornton (Research Fellow and W. Glenn Campbell and Rita Ricardo-Campbell National Fellow, 2009–10, 2010–11) We are living through one of the largest persecutions of a religious group in history. Via Glenn Reynolds Yes we KNOW about this slaughter @Pepper. The media is covering it constantly day in and day out every every day. (sarc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valin Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 There is a minor flaw with that thinking if I am not subscribing to the 5 pillars... @righteousmomma Christian Tragedy in the Muslim World by Bruce Thornton (Research Fellow and W. Glenn Campbell and Rita Ricardo-Campbell National Fellow, 2009–10, 2010–11) We are living through one of the largest persecutions of a religious group in history. Via Glenn Reynolds What does one have to do with the other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
righteousmomma Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 What does one have to do with the other? You are a Christian -- think about it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepper Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 @righteousmomma She shoots, she scores! "Pithy" - BOR 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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