Defense of Marriage Act Before SCOTUS Wednesday

[Valin]

Tipsheet:

Katie Pavlich

3/27/13

 

Yesterday the Supreme Court Justices heard arguments about California's Prop 8, legislation legalizing gay marriage in California, which was voted down by California residents. As Guy wrote, it looks as though the Justices may dismiss that case all together. Meanwhile, the Justices will hear arguments on the Defense of Marriage Act Wednesday. DOMA defines marriage on a federal level as being between one man and one woman.

 

A section of the 1996 Defense of Marriage Act says marriage may only be a relationship between a man and a woman for purposes of federal law, regardless of state laws that allow same-sex marriage.

 

Lower federal courts have struck down the measure, and now the justices, in nearly two hours of scheduled argument Wednesday, will consider whether to follow suit.

(Snip)

 

Opponents of DOMA will be arguing the law violates constitutional protections of equal treatment under the law while supporters of DOMA will argue the law simply separates state and federal powers when it comes to marriage.

 

The issue of marriage is traditionally one that states control. Nine states, including Maryland, and the District of Columbia allow same-sex marriages.

 

“DOMA does not bar or invalidate any state-law marriage but leaves states free to decide whether they will recognize same-sex marriages,” said the brief filed by the House Republican leadership, which is defending the law. “DOMA simply asserts the federal government’s right as a separate sovereign to provide its own definition for purposes of its own federal funding and programs.”

(Snip)

 

(Snip)

[Valin]

Conservative justices rip Obama

Sam Baker

03/27/13 12:46 PM ET

 

The Supreme Court's conservative justices on Wednesday were sharply critical of President Obama's approach to a federal law on same-sex marriage.

 

Obama and Attorney General Eric Holder decided in 2011 that the federal Defense of Marriage Act is unconstitutional. They quit defending it in the courts, but directed federal agencies to continue to comply with the law.

 

Conservatives on the Supreme Court criticized that approach Wednesday during oral arguments over whether DOMA is constitutional.

 

“I don't see why he doesn't have the courage of his convictions,” Chief Justice John Roberts said of Obama's decision to continue following the law, even though he believes it is unconstitutional.

 

Justice Antonin Scalia said the legal system appears to be "living in this brave new world" in which the Justice Department can simply opt out of its traditional responsibility to defend federal laws in the courts.

 

(Snip)

[Valin]

Conservative justices stress federal overreach in gay marriage case

Liz Goodwin

3/27/13

 

A majority of Supreme Court justices expressed concern about a federal law that excludes same-sex couples from marriage in the court's second gay marriage case in history on Wednesday. The probing questions from both wings of the court suggest the law could be struck down in a victory for the gay rights movement, just a day after it appeared unlikely the court would decide the Proposition 8 California case in a way that affirmed gay marriage.

 

At the arguments, the court's conservative leaning justices asked pointed questions about whether the 1996 Defense of Marriage Act intrudes into states' traditional right to regulate marriage, while the more liberal justices seemed amenable to the argument that DOMA discriminates against gay people and was passed with the intention of excluding an unpopular group.

 

(Snip)

 

Both historic gay marriage cases before the court this term have been dogged by procedural concerns. On Tuesday, key swing vote Anthony Kennedy wondered whether they should have agreed to hear the Prop 8 case at all, while other justices suggested they were skeptical that supporters of Proposition 8 had standing to appeal the case once California officials decided to drop it. It's possible that neither case could end with a decision. In DOMA, that means the lower court's decision would stand and DOMA would be illegal in the Third Circuit. In the Proposition 8 case, gay marriage would most likely become legal in California if the justices throw it out on standing or do not reach a majority.

 

____________________________________________________________

 

It sounds like the court (in both these cases) is going to kick the issue back down to the States. Which is going to open a whole different can on worms.

[pollyannaish]

While I think the gay marriage issue is lost on a national scale, from a legal point of view I think this could create some interesting precedent. Especially in regard to the responsibilities of the executive and legislative branches of government and the role of state governments in sweeping cultural changes.

 

It is amazing to me, that so many Christians are supporting gay marriage in my community. Especially among the younger generations. But if this is not overturned now, it will be later. It's a tidal wave and I don't think it can be stopped legally. There is a hugely libertarian streak in younger generations.

 

My real concern is for those in the religious community. What have we done wrong that has so cheapened this generations belief that God knows what is best for us and that sin is sin? It's not like there is a lack of clarity on this issue. I am honestly more concerned about the "love trumps all" attitude within our Christian institutions than I am with the law. It is almost immaterial when our feel good humanistic culture is taking over the principles that God and Christ laid out for us.

 

God does not love you or I more or see us as any less of a sinner, than someone who is gay. We are completely equal in our sin. But I do not want us to condone and celebrate my sin. God does not fool around on this. I my relationship to Christ to lift me up and help me aspire to love God in a way that is self-less, not all about how I feel or what I want. I want to follow his word, even though I fall down day after day after day.

 

With condoning same-sex marriage, we will increasingly see pressure on Christianity to turn a blind eye to sin and endorse it as "love." I can't help but think how the devil is working very hard to deceive even those who are close to God. Perhaps we will be going home sooner than any of us think. And that is ok with me!

[Valin]

DOMA Oral Argument

Ed Whelan

March 27, 2013

 

Here’s the transcript. So far I’ve reviewed (very quickly) the portion of the argument (pp. 55 forward) dedicated to the question whether DOMA is constitutional (as opposed to the jurisdiction/standing issues in the first portion). Some very quick thoughts:

 

1. Justice Kennedy’s questions and comments are not encouraging, as they reflect a fundamental confusion that DOMA involves the exercise of an authority to regulate marriage. See, e.g., p. 76: “The question is whether or not the Federal government, under our federalism scheme, has the authority to regulate marriage.”

 

2. Some excellent questioning by the Chief Justice ought to dispel Kennedy’s confusion.

 

(Snip)

[Valin]

 

 

It is amazing to me, that so many Christians are supporting gay marriage in my community. Especially among the younger generations. But if this is not overturned now, it will be later. It's a tidal wave and I don't think it can be stopped legally. There is a hugely libertarian streak in younger generations.

 

They're young...they're exposed to the same media/culture that everyone else is.

 

My real concern is for those in the religious community. What have we done wrong that has so cheapened this generations belief that God knows what is best for us and that sin is sin? It's not like there is a lack of clarity on this issue. I am honestly more concerned about the "love trumps all" attitude within our Christian institutions than I am with the law. It is almost immaterial when our feel good humanistic culture is taking over the principles that God and Christ laid out for us.

 

God does not love you or I more or see us as any less of a sinner, than someone who is gay. We are completely equal in our sin. But I do not want us to condone and celebrate my sin. God does not fool around on this. I my relationship to Christ to lift me up and help me aspire to love God in a way that is self-less, not all about how I feel or what I want. I want to follow his word, even though I fall down day after day after day.

 

With condoning same-sex marriage, we will increasingly see pressure on Christianity to turn a blind eye to sin and endorse it as "love." I can't help but think how the devil is working very hard to deceive even those who are close to God. Perhaps we will be going home sooner than any of us think. And that is ok with me!

 

http://youtu.be/zLGWyfGk_LU

+

a very wealthy society

 

And here we are.

 

 

When CGP was going I got into a long discussion with a couple of people there...Love...Love is all that matters.

Didn't like it when I brought up the history of marriage. Up until very recently marriage was a fairly cold blooded proposition, in which Love was only one factor, and more than just the two people getting married were involved, the two families also had a strong input.

 

I am always reminded of a scene from the Jimmy Stewart movie Shenandoah Jimmy Steward is talking to Doug McClure who wants to marry his daughter.

 

Charlie Anderson: Do you like her?

 

Lt. Sam: Well, I just said I...

 

Charlie Anderson: No, no. You just said you loved her. There's some difference between lovin' and likin'. When I married Jennie's mother, I-I didn't love her - I liked her... I liked her a lot. I liked Martha for at least three years after we were married and then one day it just dawned on me I loved her. I still do... still do. You see, Sam, when you love a woman without likin' her, the night can be long and cold, and contempt comes up with the sun.

 

 

 

OTOH One of two things will happen in the next 50-60 years

A. Our society will fall apart (See The Gods Of The Copybook Headings)

B. People will look around and see this ain't working quite the way we were told it would, and change will happen.

[pollyannaish]

@Valin you are so right. And boy, they don't make movies like that anymore. Wow.

 

I really feel like this is part of the great deception. If the concept of love can be perverted, then what else is there? That is the very definition of God, but by perverting it, we also pervert who God is and he is easier to reject.

[Valin]

@Valin you are so right. And boy, they don't make movies like that anymore. Wow.

 

I really feel like this is part of the great deception. If the concept of love can be perverted, then what else is there? That is the very definition of God, but by perverting it, we also pervert who God is and he is easier to reject.

 

What else is there? What do you got? It what Satan does...of course very often we do most of the work ourselves.

 

 

The Good News is, I just read the last chapter of Revelations....We Win.

 

This is where studying history comes in...seen this movie before....several times.

[pollyannaish]

Exactly. In today's jargon, I like to say REAL love wins.

[Valin]

@Valin you are so right. And boy, they don't make movies like that anymore. Wow.

 

I really feel like this is part of the great deception. If the concept of love can be perverted, then what else is there? That is the very definition of God, but by perverting it, we also pervert who God is and he is easier to reject.

 

HUGE MAJOR SHOCKING NEWS ALERT!!!

 

Promiscuity’s High Costs to Society

By Wesley J. Smith

 

I have always marveled that the anti-smoking and obesity crowds–those who would punish people for living unhealthy life styles–never seem to raise a peep about the high societal and personal costs of promiscuity. It seems to me that may be because the two former unhealthy categories are generally disdained by the cultural “in crowd,” while the latter way of living is extolled either implicitly, as in the way many of our social role models live their lives, and more expressly in our music, film, and television entertainment, as well as other cultural transmitters, e.g., advertisements and Cosmopolitan.

 

But promiscuity comes at a very high personal and societal cost. According to the CDC, there were more more than 110 million people with sexually transmitted infections in the US as of 2008 (prevalence), with a new infection rate of about 20 million a year (incidence). From the CNS story:

 

According to new data released by the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, there were 19.7 million new venereal infections in the United States in 2008, bringing the total number of existing sexually transmitted infections (STIs) in the U.S. at that time to 110,197,000.

(Snip)

 

 

 

 

The Gods of the Copybook Headings

 

 

 

 

AS I PASS through my incarnations in every age and race,

I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.

Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,

And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.

 

We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn

That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn:

But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind,

So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind.

 

We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace,

Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,

But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come

That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.

 

With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,

They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;

They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;

So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things.

 

When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.

They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.

But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,

And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "Stick to the Devil you know."

 

On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life

(Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)

Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,

And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "The Wages of Sin is Death."

 

In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,

By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;

But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,

And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die."

 

Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew

And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true

That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four

And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.

 

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man

There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.

That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,

And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

 

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins

When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,

As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,

The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

[pollyannaish]

Fantastic. I'm going to copy and save that. Thank you for posting it. It's been a long time since I've studied Kipling. Twenty five years or so.

 

I can best sum up my perspective on marriage in this quote posted today on facebook by an Orthodox Priest friend of mine:

 

Marriage and Living Simply - St. John Chrysostom

 

If a man and a woman marry to satisfy their sexual appetites, or to further the material aims of themselves or their families, then the union is unlikely to bring blessings.

But if a man and a woman marry in order to be companions on the journey through earth to heaven, then their union will bring great joy to themselves and to others.

 

- St. John Chrysostom, from “On Living Simply”

 

 

Disincentives to promiscuity, from a purely public policy point of view, may be a strong argument if favor of same sex marriage. If promiscuity can be reduced significantly in all communities it is better for all of us.

 

This is where I can understand the practical approach to all of this. Heterosexuals screwed up marriage first. We fell for the whole notion that the prince and the princess fell in love and married so they could have sex and lived happily ever after. You know, until the sex wasn't good and the money bad and the kids were a pain. And then you could just dissolve the promise and try again until you got it right...no matter how many times it took.

 

Marriage is much, much more than that to those of us who believe in Christ. But from a humanistic point of view, I can understand the disconnect. Marriage is, for all intents in purposes, simply a promise to not be promiscuous. Why wouldn't you extend that to any type of sexual arrangement?

 

This is where I start to wonder if we are not trying to simply hold up the last crumbling wall of an already seriously breeched sacred institution. Without God and a commitment to raising children ourselves, what's the point? AND when do we, as believers in a sacred institution quit using our energy and trying to hold up a crumbling wall and start using it to save those caught in personal destruction?

 

Which is the better path for us? Which will truly make a difference, and which is wasted energy?

 

I changed my perspective on Abortion this way. I quit giving money to legal institutions trying to make Abortion illegal and started supporting local charities that work directly with moms facing this decision...helping them choose something other than Abortion and giving them support as they move forward. For me, that seemed like a more effective way to save both children and their mothers. Let the law be the law, but let my actions make a difference.

 

This is one of those moments where I don't know. And I suppose it will depend on what this opens up in allowing the law to stifle religious objection. I'm just not sure there are easy answers.

[Valin]

Fantastic. I'm going to copy and save that. Thank you for posting it. It's been a long time since I've studied Kipling. Twenty five years or so.

 

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