America Has Too Many Teachers

[Valin]

WSJ:

Public-school employees have doubled in 40 years while student enrollment has increased by only 8.5%—and academic results have stagnated.

ANDREW J. COULSON

7/10/12

 

President Obama said last month that America can educate its way to prosperity if Congress sends money to states to prevent public school layoffs and "rehire even more teachers." Mitt Romney was having none of it, invoking "the message of Wisconsin" and arguing that the solution to our economic woes is to cut the size of government and shift resources to the private sector. Mr. Romney later stated that he wasn't calling for a reduction in the teacher force—but perhaps there would be some wisdom in doing just that.

 

Since 1970, the public school workforce has roughly doubled—to 6.4 million from 3.3 million—and two-thirds of those new hires are teachers or teachers' aides. Over the same period, enrollment rose by a tepid 8.5%. Employment has thus grown 11 times faster than enrollment. If we returned to the student-to-staff ratio of 1970, American taxpayers would save about $210 billion annually in personnel costs.

 

(Snip)

 

To find out if that's true, we can look at the "long-term trends" of 17-year-olds on the federal National Assessment of Educational Progress. These tests, first administered four decades ago, show stagnation in reading and math and a decline in science. Scores for black and Hispanic students have improved somewhat, but the scores of white students (still the majority) are flat overall, and large demographic gaps persist. Graduation rates have also stagnated or fallen. So a doubling in staff size and more than a doubling in cost have done little to improve academic outcomes.

 

(Snip)

[Evad]

America has too many BAD teachers.

There, fixed it.

[Valin]

America has too many BAD teachers.

There, fixed it.

 

I think you missed the point, that being more teachers (good or bad) did no good.

[Evad]

America has too many BAD teachers.

There, fixed it.

 

I think you missed the point, that being more teachers (good or bad) did no good.

Didn't miss it at all....I happen to disagree with it.

[Valin]

Schools That Work, Literally

The Cristo Rey Network gives students invaluable real-world experience.

Samuel Casey Carter

7/17/12

 

 

 

Jesuits! Run away!

[Pepper]

@Valin

@Evad

 

From the article

 

"If we returned to the student-to-staff ratio of 1970, American taxpayers would save about $210 billion annually in personnel costs."

 

Gee, and If wishes were horses beggars would ride.

 

And if both mom and dad stayed married and one stayed home to raise the kids instead of dumping them in day care learning improper skills and habits

And if mom and dad turned off the Internet and the tv and talked with the kids at supper time

And if the local governments ran the education system instead of licking for federal dollars

And if local districts could fire at will and teachers could not unionize

 

Get where I'm going, guys???

[Valin]

@Pepper

 

it appears to me (and as always I could be wrong) you're saying the way things are today is the way things will stay...ie both parents out of the home, a top down centralized education system. Two quotes come to mind..."That which cannot continue won't." & "Change is the only constant."

[pollyannaish]

I think, perhaps, we need to rethink the way we define "teachers."

[Pepper]

@Pepper

 

it appears to me (and as always I could be wrong) you're saying the way things are today is the way things will stay...ie both parents out of the home, a top down centralized education system. Two quotes come to mind..."That which cannot continue won't." & "Change is the only constant."

 

 

@Valin

cc

@Evad

 

Valin, school systems are reactive. Their physical make up / staffing composition today is a result of increased government interference whether via liberals or RINOS or well intended conservatives; economy; the influence of unions; the loss of family structure, decline of religion and moral standards and so on.

 

I agree with @Evad. The problem is not so much too many teachers but the bad ones. A single bad teacher is one too many. Tax payers who are willing to pay for good (effective) teachers because of academic results is a good thing. Tax payers having to pay for the livelihood of ineffective persons masquerading as teachers is fraud.

[Valin]

@Pepper

 

it appears to me (and as always I could be wrong) you're saying the way things are today is the way things will stay...ie both parents out of the home, a top down centralized education system. Two quotes come to mind..."That which cannot continue won't." & "Change is the only constant."

 

 

@Valin

cc

@Evad

 

Valin, school systems are reactive. Their physical make up / staffing composition today is a result of increased government interference whether via liberals or RINOS or well intended conservatives; economy; the influence of unions; the loss of family structure, decline of religion and moral standards and so on.

 

My point is that all that is going to change. In fact we are in the middle of these changes now,especially in regards to the education industry. Like all industries if it doesn't put out a good product, it will go away. What I find interesting (and in a good way)is people right across the political spectrum agree that this isn't working, and that something needs to be done.

[Pepper]

@Valin

 

"My point is that all that is going to change. In fact we are in the middle of these changes now,especially in regards to the education industry. Like all industries if it doesn't put out a good product, it will go away. What I find interesting (and in a good way)is people right across the political spectrum agree that this isn't working, and that something needs to be done."

 

cc @Evad

 

 

Don't confuse what you perceive to be changes with purposeful direction.

There is no single education industry.

There is not even universal agreement as to the purpose of education.

And there is no single something that is wrong, so there is no single or simple solution.

 

Start reframing discussion as to what to do with children before they hit adult hood you hit on a fundamental purpose of schooling: custodial care [keep the kids safe and sound then try to teach them something].

Years ago, when a parent remained at home (see my earlier IF list) there was no real child care to worry about. If it was needed, an aunt or grandmother stepped in with extended but close knit families. But now mothers (you can't say parents only because there seem to be fewer and fewer) worry what to do with infants through PreK and thus the rug rats are thrown into day care centers. So, you have your custody taken care of and now you move into what do kids need to learn and guess what you again run into many seemingly valid and certainly loudly argued viewpoints as to the purpose of schooling.

 

YMMVA

[Jill]

Well, they're not all just teachers there. From what I've seen, modern public schools have multiple principals and vice-principals and are top heavy in all administrative posts. Public employee unions have something to do with this decline/poor results, too.

[raygun]

Did you hear about $1 billion for teacher merit bonsus? Well, its not merely $1 Billion.

 

http://www.examiner.com/article/obama-plan-4-billion-merit-pay-for-states-and-districts

 

http://www.teachersunionexposed.com/meritpay.cfm

 

How much eductional money is wasted due to teacher's union negotiated contracts (and the perks associated, e.g., health insurance)? And how much of the money that is wasted can be attributed to to tenure w/ out accountability to merit?

 

On the flip side, I understand that the unions are theoretically protecting the inner-city teachers (teaching in hell holes akin to Beruit during Lebanese civil war).

[Evad]

@Pepper

 

it appears to me (and as always I could be wrong) you're saying the way things are today is the way things will stay...ie both parents out of the home, a top down centralized education system. Two quotes come to mind..."That which cannot continue won't." & "Change is the only constant."

 

 

@Valin

cc

@Evad

 

Valin, school systems are reactive. Their physical make up / staffing composition today is a result of increased government interference whether via liberals or RINOS or well intended conservatives; economy; the influence of unions; the loss of family structure, decline of religion and moral standards and so on.

 

My point is that all that is going to change. In fact we are in the middle of these changes now,especially in regards to the education industry. Like all industries if it doesn't put out a good product, it will go away. What I find interesting (and in a good way)is people right across the political spectrum agree that this isn't working, and that something needs to be done.

pepper

valin

 

"Like all industries if it doesn't put out a good product, it will go away."

 

WHAT??!!

 

Valin, you must be joking. That certainly doesn't apply to the public school system, or anything run by the government for that matter..

 

Look, there are plenty of good public schools with good teachers. I know..my grandson attends one. But the problem is they are all on the periphery.

Show me one inner city public school that is worth a crap. They don't exist, and the reasons have all been listed above.

 

My solution: Keep the ones that work and get rid of EVERY INNER CITY public school that exists.

Of course, as long as we have unions, RATs, crooked politicians (oops, I already said RATs), useless teachers, uninvolved parents, hoodlum kids, yada yada, that will never happen.

 

We need a whole bunch of Joe Clarks, but, alas, that won't happen either.

[raygun]

@Pepper

 

it appears to me (and as always I could be wrong) you're saying the way things are today is the way things will stay...ie both parents out of the home, a top down centralized education system. Two quotes come to mind..."That which cannot continue won't." & "Change is the only constant."

 

 

@Valin

cc

@Evad

 

Valin, school systems are reactive. Their physical make up / staffing composition today is a result of increased government interference whether via liberals or RINOS or well intended conservatives; economy; the influence of unions; the loss of family structure, decline of religion and moral standards and so on.

 

My point is that all that is going to change. In fact we are in the middle of these changes now,especially in regards to the education industry. Like all industries if it doesn't put out a good product, it will go away. What I find interesting (and in a good way)is people right across the political spectrum agree that this isn't working, and that something needs to be done.

pepper

valin

 

"Like all industries if it doesn't put out a good product, it will go away."

 

WHAT??!!

 

Valin, you must be joking. That certainly doesn't apply to the public school system, or anything run by the government for that matter..

 

Look, there are plenty of good public schools with good teachers. I know..my grandson attends one. But the problem is they are all on the periphery.

Show me one inner city public school that is worth a crap. They don't exist, and the reasons have all been listed above.

 

My solution: Keep the ones that work and get rid of EVERY INNER CITY public school that exists.

Of course, as long as we have unions, RATs, crooked politicians (oops, I already said RATs), useless teachers, uninvolved parents, hoodlum kids, yada yada, that will never happen.

 

We need a whole bunch of Joe Clarks, but, alas, that won't happen either.

 

Are you suggesting that inner-city skrewels should be shut down?

 

Before I make a decision as Master of the Universe, how much largesse goes to inner-city skrewels and their teacher staff?

 

Can we just pull out and consider these no-skrewell areas to be sharia / jewish / indonesican lawed areas, and just get on with it? Why not allow the area in qwexion to just go ghetto?

 

If ALL support was removed from these areas, and an infestation of tse-tse flies (or sumpin' ) ensued, should the enitire 250,000 people be nuked immediately, or should ALL the people be physically deported. The Statute of Liberty will be dumbed into the sea.

 

I belive if an illegal immigrant is found: you throw their ass off the pier.

 

If the immigrant that is undocumented can't find a sponser before they're thrown off the pier, too bad, so sad, sucks to be them.

 

Even if that undocumented alien is magna or summa cum laud, throw them off the pier with large weights strapped to their ankles.

 

We brook NO nonsense here in the United States of America.

 

f%@# you and do you NOT come here. We do NOT need you. We have a lot of black skins that will work just fine for a lot less than legal wage once the law is averted.

 

Helicopter gunships on the Mexican border to prevent infiltration. ALL infiltration will be extirminated.

 

NO infiltration will be tolerated.

 

So sad, too bad, sucks to be you that you believed in the myth of Statute of Liberty.

 

What a horrifying fiasco where people would pay their lives savings to trudge along some path in a desert.

 

We need National Guard forces that'll blow these scoff-laws away.

[raygun]

Let us set the bomb claymore along the entire boarder.

 

You cross the boarder: sucks to be you (so sad, too bad).

[Valin]

 

 

WHAT??!!

 

Valin, you must be joking. That certainly doesn't apply to the public school system, or anything run by the government for that matter..

 

Look, there are plenty of good public schools with good teachers. I know..my grandson attends one. But the problem is they are all on the periphery.

Show me one inner city public school that is worth a crap. They don't exist, and the reasons have all been listed above.

 

My solution: Keep the ones that work and get rid of EVERY INNER CITY public school that exists.

Of course, as long as we have unions, RATs, crooked politicians (oops, I already said RATs), useless teachers, uninvolved parents, hoodlum kids, yada yada, that will never happen.

 

We need a whole bunch of Joe Clarks, but, alas, that won't happen either.

 

 

What makes you think it is only inner city school?

 

And yes in point of fact I am talking about the whole public school system as we know it, actually I am talking about the whole system K through College, if not going away, completely changing the way it operates. It is happening now...see Major Expansion in Online Learning & Keyword: Education.

 

Actually on a larger level I am talking This is what I am talking about. I believe we (human beings) are smack dab in the middle of a change on the level of what happened in the 14th and 15th century.

[Valin]

@Pepper

 

 

A. Don't confuse what you perceive to be changes with purposeful direction.

B.There is no single education industry.

There is not even universal agreement as to the purpose of education.

And there is no single something that is wrong, so there is no single or simple solution.

 

A. As always I maintain my god given constitutional right to be wrong. Something I use quite a bit.

B. Of course there is, although the term Eduction System might be another way of putting it.

There is not an agreement on the purpose of education? Not quite sure what you mean by that.

Oh! I have never said there is a single thing wrong, or a single simple solution. And I don't have the answers, I just point out the whole system has become pretty screwed up.

 

Start reframing discussion as to what to do with children before they hit adult hood you hit on a fundamental purpose of schooling: custodial care [keep the kids safe and sound then try to teach them something].

Years ago, when a parent remained at home (see my earlier IF list) there was no real child care to worry about. If it was needed, an aunt or grandmother stepped in with extended but close knit families. But now mothers (you can't say parents only because there seem to be fewer and fewer) worry what to do with infants through PreK and thus the rug rats are thrown into day care centers. So, you have your custody taken care of and now you move into what do kids need to learn and guess what you again run into many seemingly valid and certainly loudly argued viewpoints as to the purpose of schooling.

 

YMMVA

 

I think this is part of what is changing. In some ways we will be going back to an earlier time.

[Valin]

@Evad @Pepper

 

 

Two Million Minutes

 

A bit dated, from 07 and some would say over the top,....but

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx4pN-aiofw

[Evad]

raygun

 

"Are you suggesting that inner-city skrewels should be shut down?"

Precisely..shut down and demolished. How will these kids ever escape their chains if we don't act assertively to set them free? And in this case, being set free means providing an escape from relentless liberal race baiting indoctrination.

[Evad]

"..If ALL support was removed from these areas, "

 

Actually, I'm suggesting just the opposite.

We need to stop f*king around and get off our sorry a$$e$ and actually develop a comprehensive plan to save these kids.

If there is ONE area that I would concentrate massive human and economic resources on if I were Master of the Universe, this would be it.

[Valin]

"..If ALL support was removed from these areas, "

 

Actually, I'm suggesting just the opposite.

We need to stop f*king around and get off our sorry a$$e$ and actually develop a comprehensive plan to save these kids.

If there is ONE area that I would concentrate massive human and economic resources on if I were Master of the Universe, this would be it.

 

While inner city schools may be the most blatant examples of the problems facing the educational system, they are not the only one. The major underlying problem is out system is not putting out a good product...ie a well and broadly educated person ready for college or work.

[pollyannaish]

Good thing I'm home today. Let the pontification begin (ha!):

 

Education is something that is near and dear to my heart. Both my husband and I come from a family of educators. In addition, I have taught at both preschool and college levels, and, for a brief time, at the same time. Which was interesting to say the least. I also have a brand new high school graduate who is currently navigating the "what are my best options for the future" maze. So while I am no expert, I do have intimate knowledge of the educational system as it now exists.

 

First of all, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that there is a higher education bubble and it is doomed. It WILL burst and I suspect it could be much sooner than any of us suspect. Government money in higher education has corrupted and inflated it to the point that the burden being taken on by students can not, in MOST fields, be recouped quickly enough. When employers routinely list a four year degree as a requirement for jobs that earn less than 25% over minimum wage there is a disconnect so big that it will eventually bring the system down. Do the math. You can not have a $100K education paid off with that little return on investment. It just doesn't make sense. The price for higher education is inflated over the VALUE of a higher education.

 

In addition, money pumped into the K-12 school system has not demonstrably improved it. Neither have so called accountability measures. This suggests to me that the the system itself is the problem, not the quality of the teachers or the lack of funds. I should note here that the teachers union exists to protect the system more than the individual, which is why they are such a hinderance to necessary change.

 

So. This brings me to the question of what should be done. And I actually have an idea. One based on measuring competency a little differently. So let me outline the basics.

 

Primary and Secondary education

 

1. Teachers should not be educated in teaching schools, but experts in a specific field with communication, sociology and psychology classes added in to make sure they are competent communicators for multiple age groups. At graduation, they must show that they are actually capable of doing so

 

2. All K-12 education should be completely competency based, not age based. You go at your own pace, and are not advanced until you master a given subject. Therefore, a 12 year old could be at level 2 in math and level 15 in reading. Teachers teach more similarly to high school or college where classes are taught on a specific subject, not at a specific grade level.

 

3. The government provides vouchers for students to attend school until they are 18. Parent's may manage their students education by sending them to schools that specialize in special areas, learning styles or values. The only portion the government manages is the basic competency levels.

 

4. To pass any competency level, a student must show appropriate proficiency on a standardized exam, an oral exam and a written exam. You must show complete competency in two out of three of those exams before moving forward.

 

5. Local governments would provide facilities tax and rent free to schools. If a school was not performing well or meeting expectations, the local school board/district could award the education contract to other providers with different methodology. The school board would be comprised of elected members and be responsible to the districts parents. Serious discipline issues as well as the creation of rules and regulations would be handled by a coalition of the elected school board, teachers/administrators and parents.

 

6. All schools would require uniforms until the age of 18.

 

 

Advanced education

 

1. The tenure system would be abolished in favor of a free speech protection act.

 

2. Real world experience would be valued over advanced degrees, with competency tests given to professors to ensure their ability to communicate well, both in written and oral forms.

 

3. Universities and colleges would specialize in specific career/job tracks rather than the humanities and other liberal arts endeavors. Humanities education would, by and large, be transferred to the K-12 system.

 

4. Universities would not provide traditional diplomas. Instead, graduates would receive a degree/certification in a specific area. The length of time taken to complete a certification would depend on the complexity of the subject and the competency of a student.

 

5. The price of the education would be reduced so that individuals could return to the university throughout their career to obtain new and different certifications as needed. This would, in turn, connect the return on investment to something tangible.

 

6. The seven year cycle. Professors would be required to teach for four years, and then spend two years in the field. The seventh year would be a research/publishing year. This could be supplemented as a work/study program by the universities. This would ensure that you do not get professors that have not had contact with the real world for decades, and also ensure that research and writing does not take away from the quality of the instruction.

 

7. Teacher evaluations are elicited from certified students that have been in the workforce for a minimum of two years, rather than concurrent with their education. This gives both the student and the teacher the opportunity to review his abilities on the application of the knowledge, rather than how interesting/fun/clear things were in the moment. Feedback is given as to the relevance of the material required for certification.

 

 

So that's it. A few ideas I've developed over time that I think could improve our system. The trick is...how does one get there from here with so many vested interests in the current system?

 

1. Start at the local level. Is there anything that says we can't experiment at home?

2. Vouchers, vouchers, vouchers.

3. Cut the amount of federal money going into our education system...but talk about a larger plan and why this isn't an anti-teacher stance. Get teachers themselves talking about these reforms.

4. Work to create successful micro versions to show success.

 

Other than that, I'm not sure. It's going to take some visionaries to make this change...and a lot of support for change.

 

THAT is the tricky part. A burst bubble will make that happen sooner than later.

Edited July 20, 2012 by pollyannaish
Edited a couple of things for clarity.

[Pepper]

@pollyannaish

 

Great ideas!

 

Bump for later reading. I like the primary. Under advanced education - Don't know about #3. This goes back to my earlier post about purposes of schooling. Some adaptation of #6 would be great.