AP Enterprise: Alleged NKorean submarine attack came near US-South Korea anti-sub maneuvers

[WestVirginiaRebel]

Fox News:

WASHINGTON (AP) — On the night a torpedo-armed North Korean submarine allegedly sank a South Korean patrol ship, the U.S. and South Korea were engaged in joint anti-submarine warfare exercises just 75 miles away, military officials told The Associated Press.

The sinking of the Cheonan was the worst South Korean military disaster since the 1950-53 Korean War. It showed that even impoverished nations such as North Korea can inflict heavy casualties on far better equipped and trained forces, including those backed by U.S. military might.

Defense Secretary Robert Gates said plans for more joint U.S.-South Korea anti-submarine exercises, announced after Cheonan went down, are on hold awaiting U.N. action on the incident.

That's in part, Gates said Friday while in Asia, because of concerns about instigating another rash act by the North Koreans.

Two months after the sinking, U.S. officials for the first time disclosed details of the joint naval exercise held the same day as the attack on the Cheonan. Forty-six South Korean sailors died on the warship, which was not involved in the exercise. It was on routine patrol near disputed waters.

Military officials said the drill could not have detected the North Korean sub. Officials and defense experts said a minisub would have been difficult for even a nearby ship to track in shallow coastal waters.

What surprised experts was that a 130-ton minisub, without warning, could bring down a warship nine or 10 times its size, a power mismatch called asymmetric warfare.

"To us, stealth denotes the latest technology — billions of dollars in research and development in armaments," said John Park, a Korea expert at the U.S. Institute of Peace. "The North Korean version of stealth is old-school diesel-battery operated subs that evade modern detection methods."
________

Something to keep in mind should any future war break out...

[Valin]

What surprised experts was that a 130-ton minisub, without warning, could bring down a warship nine or 10 times its size, a power mismatch called asymmetric warfare.

 

If they were surprised they were no experts.

[Pepper]

Or just think box cutters....

 

What surprised experts was that a 130-ton minisub, without warning, could bring down a warship nine or 10 times its size, a power mismatch called asymmetric warfare.

 

If they were surprised they were no experts.

[Argyle58]

What surprised experts was that a 130-ton minisub, without warning, could bring down a warship nine or 10 times its size, a power mismatch called asymmetric warfare.

 

If they were surprised they were no experts.

 

One need only look at the Japanese mini subs of WWII to see that these so called "experts" were just wearing blinders. The type A mini sub that the Imperial Navy used during WWII displaced a mere 46 tons, and yet enjoyed moderate success against Allied shipping in the Pacific during the war.

 

While I could find no record of a type A actually sinking an Allied warship, it should be noted that the torpedos that they carried were fully capable of doing so.

[Al_Simmons]

What surprised experts was that a 130-ton minisub, without warning, could bring down a warship nine or 10 times its size, a power mismatch called asymmetric warfare.

 

If they were surprised they were no experts.

 

One need only look at the Japanese mini subs of WWII to see that these so called "experts" were just wearing blinders. The type A mini sub that the Imperial Navy used during WWII displaced a mere 46 tons, and yet enjoyed moderate success against Allied shipping in the Pacific during the war.

 

While I could find no record of a type A actually sinking an Allied warship, it should be noted that the torpedos that they carried were fully capable of doing so.

 

There was evidence presented a few years ago, based largely on a famous photo taken by a Japanese plane of battleship row as the torpedo tracks headed towards the ships, that one of the Dec 7 midget subs had gotten into the harbor and had fired its torpedoes dead-on at the battleships. I don't believe that the "fifth sub" has ever been accounted for, and that may be the one that got in and may be buried somewhere on the bottom of Pearl Harbor.

[Valin]

What surprised experts was that a 130-ton minisub, without warning, could bring down a warship nine or 10 times its size, a power mismatch called asymmetric warfare.

 

If they were surprised they were no experts.

 

One need only look at the Japanese mini subs of WWII to see that these so called "experts" were just wearing blinders. The type A mini sub that the Imperial Navy used during WWII displaced a mere 46 tons, and yet enjoyed moderate success against Allied shipping in the Pacific during the war.

 

While I could find no record of a type A actually sinking an Allied warship, it should be noted that the torpedos that they carried were fully capable of doing so.

 

There was evidence presented a few years ago, based largely on a famous photo taken by a Japanese plane of battleship row as the torpedo tracks headed towards the ships, that one of the Dec 7 midget subs had gotten into the harbor and had fired its torpedoes dead-on at the battleships. I don't believe that the "fifth sub" has ever been accounted for, and that may be the one that got in and may be buried somewhere on the bottom of Pearl Harbor.

 

 

Thanks for the replies.

 

My point is why is an "expert" should be surprised that slamming a couple of hundred pounds of high explosives into the hull of a small warship would sink it.

I've been reading for sometime now how the ASW community is really concerned about the new diesel powered submarines. We are not talking WWII, these new subs are very quiet can stay down for a very long time and are cheap to build. Combine that with the new torpedo tech. and there is cause for worry.

 

FYI

Bluffer's Guide: North Korean Navy 2007

[Al_Simmons]

Quite right. The deadliest enemy of any warship today is the same as it was 100 years ago - the submarine launched torpedo.

[Argyle58]

What surprised experts was that a 130-ton minisub, without warning, could bring down a warship nine or 10 times its size, a power mismatch called asymmetric warfare.

 

If they were surprised they were no experts.

 

One need only look at the Japanese mini subs of WWII to see that these so called "experts" were just wearing blinders. The type A mini sub that the Imperial Navy used during WWII displaced a mere 46 tons, and yet enjoyed moderate success against Allied shipping in the Pacific during the war.

 

While I could find no record of a type A actually sinking an Allied warship, it should be noted that the torpedos that they carried were fully capable of doing so.

 

There was evidence presented a few years ago, based largely on a famous photo taken by a Japanese plane of battleship row as the torpedo tracks headed towards the ships, that one of the Dec 7 midget subs had gotten into the harbor and had fired its torpedoes dead-on at the battleships. I don't believe that the "fifth sub" has ever been accounted for, and that may be the one that got in and may be buried somewhere on the bottom of Pearl Harbor.

 

 

Thanks for the replies.

 

My point is why is an "expert" should be surprised that slamming a couple of hundred pounds of high explosives into the hull of a small warship would sink it.

I've been reading for sometime now how the ASW community is really concerned about the new diesel powered submarines. We are not talking WWII, these new subs are very quiet can stay down for a very long time and are cheap to build. Combine that with the new torpedo tech. and there is cause for worry.

 

FYI

Bluffer's Guide: North Korean Navy 2007

 

I understand that the new technologies are making the ASW crowd uneasy.....new battery technology has made diesel boats a desirable and cheap option for aggressive nations on a budget. But, there is a parallel to the WWII minisubs. At the time sonar equipment was still crude enough to make passive detection nearly impossible, and the small return signature of the midgets made them difficult to detect with active sonar protocols.

 

But, the U.S. Navy is working on a solution to the N. Korean (some say that Iran is also building a small fleet) subs, though. My nephew is an ASW P-3 pilot......he says that they are currently working on technology that will isolate the higher pitched sound frequencies generated by the electric motors that diesel subs must use while submerged.

[Valin]

What surprised experts was that a 130-ton minisub, without warning, could bring down a warship nine or 10 times its size, a power mismatch called asymmetric warfare.

 

If they were surprised they were no experts.

 

One need only look at the Japanese mini subs of WWII to see that these so called "experts" were just wearing blinders. The type A mini sub that the Imperial Navy used during WWII displaced a mere 46 tons, and yet enjoyed moderate success against Allied shipping in the Pacific during the war.

 

While I could find no record of a type A actually sinking an Allied warship, it should be noted that the torpedos that they carried were fully capable of doing so.

 

There was evidence presented a few years ago, based largely on a famous photo taken by a Japanese plane of battleship row as the torpedo tracks headed towards the ships, that one of the Dec 7 midget subs had gotten into the harbor and had fired its torpedoes dead-on at the battleships. I don't believe that the "fifth sub" has ever been accounted for, and that may be the one that got in and may be buried somewhere on the bottom of Pearl Harbor.

 

 

Thanks for the replies.

 

My point is why is an "expert" should be surprised that slamming a couple of hundred pounds of high explosives into the hull of a small warship would sink it.

I've been reading for sometime now how the ASW community is really concerned about the new diesel powered submarines. We are not talking WWII, these new subs are very quiet can stay down for a very long time and are cheap to build. Combine that with the new torpedo tech. and there is cause for worry.

 

FYI

Bluffer's Guide: North Korean Navy 2007

 

I understand that the new technologies are making the ASW crowd uneasy.....new battery technology has made diesel boats a desirable and cheap option for aggressive nations on a budget. But, there is a parallel to the WWII minisubs. At the time sonar equipment was still crude enough to make passive detection nearly impossible, and the small return signature of the midgets made them difficult to detect with active sonar protocols.

 

But, the U.S. Navy is working on a solution to the N. Korean (some say that Iran is also building a small fleet) subs, though. My nephew is an ASW P-3 pilot......he says that they are currently working on technology that will isolate the higher pitched sound frequencies generated by the electric motors that diesel subs must use while submerged.

 

Move and counter move...that's the name of the game. Thus it has always been.