Born of a WHAT?

[Valin]

The American Interest:

The specifically Christian idea of the Virgin Birth is one of the most controversial and confusing theological concepts around, and a Yuletide blog which didnt take on the topic wouldnt be doing its job.

Walter Russell Mead

12/27/13

 

t is not quite the most controversial verse in the Bible, but Luke 1:35 comes close. Mary has just replied to the angel Gabriels statement that she will be the mother of the Messiah with a question of her own: How shall this be, she says in the words of the King James Version, seeing I know not a man?

 

Dont worry about that, says the angel. The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

 

In other words, Jesus would be born of a virgin, a woman who had not, in the biblical sense, known a man.

 

 

(Snip)

 

Some theorize that the early Christians made up the story as a cover up. This seems weak. Inventing a story about a virgin birth in order to hush up a scandal about a sexual escapade seems a little far-fetched. Mary wasnt an ancient movie star whose private life was the subject of widespread gossip in the tabloid press. Nazareth was a small town in the boondocks, and the world at large knew little and cared less about what went on there. Mary wasnt a single mother raising her child alone; her betrothed married her in the usual way and accepted the child as his. The early church wasnt facing a sea of rumors about Marys prenuptial behavior, and if it had been there are more convincing ways of scotching rumors than proclaiming a miraculous virgin birth. The causality is the other way round: the story wasnt concocted to squelch ugly rumors. The early churchs insistence on proclaiming the unique nature of Jesus birth was the cause of the ugly rumors about it. The Church proclaimed a stark improbability as undeniable fact, and that naturally led people to ask the questions they still ask today.

 

 

(Snip)

 

God didnt send Jesus into the world because he was satisfied with the status quo. God sent him here because things needed to change and right at the top of the list of the things God wanted to change was the position of women. The change didnt happen overnight, and even today we havent seen the full consequences of giving half the world its rightful due, but from the day that Mary answered Gabriel a new force has been at work in the world, and what we see today is the blossoming of a tree that was planted a very long time ago.

[righteousmomma]

Though wordy I was right there with Mead until the last:

 

Christianity like many world religions has often been less than fair in its treatment of women. But at the heart of historic Christianity there has always been the idea that one young single woman’s faithful choice gave God the opening he used to save the whole human race. Christmas is a feminist holiday, a feast that celebrates the free choice of an autonomous woman. As Christianity has risen to become the largest and most widespread religion in the world, women are coming into their own. It cannot be otherwise; Christianity of all the world’s great religions owes its origin to the choice of a woman to cooperate with God.

God didn’t send Jesus into the world because he was satisfied with the status quo. God sent him here because things needed to change — and right at the top of the list of the things God wanted to change was the position of women. The change didn’t happen overnight, and even today we haven’t seen the full consequences of giving half the world its rightful due, but from the day that Mary answered Gabriel a new force has been at work in the world, and what we see today is the blossoming of a tree that was planted a very long time ago.

 

 

Mead's statements here have bases in truth but they dissolve into nothing but post modern humanistic views of Christianity.

While his statements in this excerpt have bases in truth and are not disagreeable, Mead has lost his way or his main focus. I say this based on what the Bible proclaims from Genesis to Revelation.

 

I have edited this statement because of redundancy - lost my first reply which showed up waaaay under my second reply.

[Valin]

@righteousmama

 

No disagreements, I do think some of his phrases...

 

"A claim that Jesus was the son of Mary and a Roman soldier Pantherus has been making the rounds since at least 180 AD; it has recently been revived by the film director Paul Verhoeven. I’m not holding my breath for a ‘scientific’ resolution of this question; I am not sure in any case how you would check for God’s DNA in a paternity test even if you could find some of Jesus’ fingernail clippings or beard trimmings to take to the lab."

 

"Some theorize that the early Christians made up the story as a cover up. This seems weak. Inventing a story about a virgin birth in order to hush up a scandal about a sexual escapade seems a little far-fetched. Mary wasn’t an ancient movie star whose private life was the subject of widespread gossip in the tabloid press. Nazareth was a small town in the boondocks, and the world at large knew little and cared less about what went on there."

 

I have visions of 1st century paparazzi, interviews on nightline with the shepherds....

What can I say...I have a twisted mind.

[SrWoodchuck]

Though wordy I was right there with Mead until the last:

 

 

Christianity like many world religions has often been less than fair in its treatment of women. But at the heart of historic Christianity there has always been the idea that one young single woman’s faithful choice gave God the opening he used to save the whole human race. Christmas is a feminist holiday, a feast that celebrates the free choice of an autonomous woman. As Christianity has risen to become the largest and most widespread religion in the world, women are coming into their own. It cannot be otherwise; Christianity of all the world’s great religions owes its origin to the choice of a woman to cooperate with God.

God didn’t send Jesus into the world because he was satisfied with the status quo. God sent him here because things needed to change — and right at the top of the list of the things God wanted to change was the position of women. The change didn’t happen overnight, and even today we haven’t seen the full consequences of giving half the world its rightful due, but from the day that Mary answered Gabriel a new force has been at work in the world, and what we see today is the blossoming of a tree that was planted a very long time ago.

 

 

Mead's statements here have bases in truth but they dissolve into nothing but post modern humanistic views of Christianity.

While his statements in this excerpt have bases in truth and are not disagreeable, Mead has lost his way or his main focus. I say this based on what the Bible proclaims from Genesis to Revelation.

 

I have edited this statement because of redundancy - lost my first reply which showed up waaaay under my second reply.

 

@righteousmomma!

 

While I wouldn't frame this in terms of feminist celebration......it seems that people ignore the difference between cultures & times......forming ethnocentric & anachronistic conclusions.....I think it was still a great victory for women.

 

According to what I've learned about Mary, she could claim lineage from King David, through Nathan. {Joseph through Solomon}

 

She was extremely devout & learned about Jewish custom. She was offered to God, in the Jewish Temple....something that usually happened to first-born males.

 

At her age [13-15 years] she was probably getting a little too old to wed.

 

Her prospective husband, Joseph, had been married at least once before.....and was a widower with grown children. They still stoned women & men to death for adultery, or even...at times...for pre-marital sex.

 

She initiated the Ministry of Jesus, during the wedding at Cana. It is recorded that she was with Jesus, during many of His important biblical events....especially at His death & after His Resurrection.

 

All that aside, she was a vulnerable young woman....who accepted a mission that was fraught with danger...and agreed to be the vessel for our salvation. Incredible no matter what culture or age she was in....but especially during her time.

 

Throughout the world, various religions have tales of women giving birth to children begotten by gods. Zeus/Jupiter was notorious....but there are many examples. Most of those mythological women & children had unstable & sometimes unhappy lives.

 

I like to think about Mary's courage as she accepted conception by the Holy Spirit of God....the same Breath of Life that the Father breathed over the waters of creation....to create life....and it's cradle, Earth.

[Valin]

 

Though wordy I was right there with Mead until the last:

 

Throughout the world, various religions have tales of women giving birth to children begotten by gods. Zeus/Jupiter was notorious....but there are many examples. Most of those mythological women & children had unstable & sometimes unhappy lives.

 

 

[righteousmomma]

I keep losing my posts but here goes again:

Mary has one of the most profound statements of faith found in the Bible:

"38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.”

 

In other words: Lord, I believe. Have your Will be done."

 

John 3: 16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

 

It is not about me, a woman, nor you guys who are men but about God and who He is.

[Valin]

I keep losing my posts but here goes again:

Mary has one of the most profound statements of faith found in the Bible:

"38 I am the Lords servant, Mary answered. May your word to me be fulfilled.

 

In other words: Lord, I believe. Have your Will be done."

 

MaryFilm

 

Mary (while always important) became hugely important in the medieval times as part of the chivalric movement.

Chivalry in the Middle Ages

[SrWoodchuck]

I keep losing my posts but here goes again:

Mary has one of the most profound statements of faith found in the Bible:

"38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.”

 

In other words: Lord, I believe. Have your Will be done."

 

John 3: 16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

 

It is not about me, a woman, nor you guys who are men but about God and who He is.

 

Disagree slightly. All things can be ".......seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God....." if we look with discernment......and faith.

 

While God the Father was establishing the "New Adam" conceived without sin....so that He could be the perfect unblemished & last "blood sacrifice" he also established Jesus' mother Mary, as the "New Eve"....who was faithful & obedient to Him.

 

Without Mary....or a Mary.....no salvation.

 

The 1st Adam was created without sin. The 1st Eve was created without sin. They sinned after their creation & imputed that sin upon themselves & all mankind.

 

Would the perfect man, Jesus, be expected to reside in an imperfect vessel?

 

IMO-It certainly is about us.....all of us. We are nothing without God. God is everything, even without us.....but if it wasn't about us.....He would not have sent His Son to redeem us.

 

Before Christ's death on the cross......there was no way to be with the Father. After Jesus death, he descended into Hell [or to "the Dead"] announcing & allowing to all those souls, that by His victorious Resurrection....there was now a bridge to heaven, and the Father God.

 

The Prophets might not have been burning in eternal fire....but without God they were certainly not in Heaven. One of the first saints was the "Good Thief" ....St. Dismas....sent to Heaven by Christ Himself.

 

Jesus, forgive us our sins. Save us from the fires of Hell. Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those, that are in most need of Thy mercy.

[righteousmomma]

Well, I , as a Protestant, disagree with:

 

 

While God the Father was establishing the "New Adam" conceived without sin....so that He could be the perfect unblemished & last "blood sacrifice" he also established Jesus' mother Mary, as the "New Eve"....who was faithful & obedient to Him.

 

Without Mary....or a Mary.....no salvation.

 

The 1st Adam was created without sin. The 1st Eve was created without sin. They sinned after their creation & imputed that sin upon themselves & all mankind.

 

Would the perfect man, Jesus, be expected to reside in an imperfect vessel?

 

That is if you are saying that Mary was born immaculately/without sin or perfect?

 

Mary was not perfect. She was a human being like us.

Edited to add that is one reason everyone finds her faith statement so awesome.

 

It is stressed that she was virgin because she was to bare The Seed. The Seed would not have the tainted blood that now runs through the human race from the seed (zera =semen/seed) of man. Jesus the Christ is the New Man, the Second Adam. His legal right is found in the genealogy that Matthew lists. He is Fully God and fully man. He was placed in Mary by the overshadowing of God the Holy Spirit. Thus He was born of woman.

 

I understand that Genesis 3 has come to have a vastly different interpretation for Catholics versus Protestants. So after much searching I found the following best summarizes the difference and why without any more input from me.

 

http://jdisciple.wordpress.com/2009/12/26/the-seed-of-the-woman/

[SrWoodchuck]

Sweet @righteousmomma!

 

All-righty-then..........thanks for the interesting link.

 

We [as Catholic's] believe that Mary was created without 'Original Sin' [within the Father's ability]......therefore a pure vessel. It is not "accepted" that she was incapable of sin....or that she never sinned in her lifetime. Although I don't think she did sin.[My belief]

 

There is a story/belief that the Father showed the image of Mary, before "The Time of Mans Beginning" so that His angels & the Hosts of heaven could be aware of His plan for Mary, and know that she would deliver His Son, Jesus Christ.

 

Satan [shaitan/Ha-Satan = Prosecutor- = God's Prosecuting Angel*] was as powerful as Michael the Archangel & was too proud & refused to bend a knee to Jesus, as He was man & God. This was the reason for Satan being cast from heaven.

 

From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan

 

*Book of Job

 

In the Book of Job, ha-Satan is a member of the Divine Council, "the sons of God" who are subservient to God. Ha-Satan, in this capacity, is many times translated as "the prosecutor", and is charged by God to tempt humans and to report back to God all who go against His decrees. At the beginning of the book, Job is a good person "who feared God and turned away from evil" (Job 1:1), and has therefore been rewarded by God. When the Divine Council meets, God informs ha-Satan about Job's blameless, morally upright character. Between Job 1:9–10 and 2:4–5, ha-Satan merely points out that God has given Job everything that a man could want, so of course Job would be loyal to God; if all Job has been given, even his health, were to be taken away from him, however, his faith would collapse. God therefore grants ha-Satan the chance to test Job.

 

*********************************************************************************************************************************************

 

From your post:

It is stressed that she was virgin because she was to bare The Seed. The Seed would not have the tainted blood that now runs through the human race from the seed (zera =semen/seed) of man. Jesus the Christ is the New Man, the Second Adam. His legal right is found in the genealogy that Matthew lists. He is Fully God and fully man. He was placed in Mary by the overshadowing of God the Holy Spirit. Thus He was born of woman.

 

 

 

We [as Catholics] believe that Mary conceived [at the moment of conception] or was implanted with Jesus, by the Life-bringer....the Holy Spirit of God. Jesus was 'begotten" not with the 'seed' of humanity, but with the pure Spirit of the Creator God.....that emanates from both the Father & the Son:

 

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia http://bibleencyclopedia.com/begotten.htm

 

BEGOTTEN

 

be-got'-'-n (yaladh; "to bear," "bring forth," "beget"; denotes the physical relation of either parent to a child, Genesis 3:16; Genesis 4:18): Used metaphorically of God's relation to Israel (Deuteronomy 32:18) and to the Messianic king (Psalm 2:7); (gennao, "to beget," or "bear"): generally used of a father (Matthew 1:1-16); more rarely of a mother (Luke 1:13, 57); used metaphorically of causing or engendering moral and spiritual relations and states (1 Corinthians 4:15 Philemon 1:10); of the new birth the Holy Spirit (John 3:3). Men who obey and love God as sons are begotten of Him (John 1:13 1 John 2:29; 1 John 3:9; 1 John 4:7; 1 John 5:1, 4, 18; compare 1 Peter 1:23). Used especially of God's act in making Christ His Son: "Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee" (Psalm 2:7) quoted in Acts 13:33 in reference to His resurrection (compare Romans 1:4). The same passage is cited (Hebrews 1:5) as proving Christ's filial dignity, transcending the angels in that "he hath inherited a more excellent name than they," i.e. the name of son; and again (Hebrews 5:5) of God conferring upon Christ the glory of the priestly office.

 

Commentators differ as to whether the act of begetting the Son in these two passages is

 

(a) the eternal generation, or the incarnation in time, or the resurrection and ascension.

 

The immediate context of Hebrews 1:5 (see Hebrews 1:3) seems to favor the last view (Westcott). The first view would not be foreign to the author's thought: with Hebrews 5:5 compare Hebrews 6:20, "a high priest forever" (Alford). The author of Heb thinks of the eternal and essential sonship of Christ as realized in history in His ascension to the "right hand of the Majesty" (Hebrews 1:3). And what is emphatic is the fact and status of sonship, rather than the time of begetting.

 

We say in our Creed [which is essentially the same among most Christian religions] that,

 

".....I believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven & Earth, and of all things visible & invisible; I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, Our Lord, con-substantial & One in Being with the Father through all ages...." and later in the Creed, "...I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord & Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, Who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, Who has spoken through the prophets....."

 

**********************************************************************************************************************************************

 

From your link:

 

(Gen 3:15) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

 

 

I see that a command of the all-powerful Father....."I will put enmity between thee & the woman...." ...Enmity-is the object of the command......that will bruise thy head...."

 

Encyclopedias - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia - http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/enmity/

 

ENMITY - en'-mi-ti ('ebhah; echthra):

 

"Enmity" (hate) occurs as the translation of 'ebhah in Genesis 3:15, "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed," and in Numbers 35:21,22, where the absence of enmity on the part of the man-slayer modifies the judgment to be passed on him.

 

In the New Testament "enmity" is the translation of echthra:

 

Luke 23:12; Romans 8:7, "The mind of the flesh is enmity against God." James 4:4, "The friendship of the world is enmity with God" (because "the world" is preferred to God); in Ephesians 2:15,16, Christ is said to have "abolished in his flesh the enmity," by His cross to have "slain the enmity," that is, the opposition between Jew and Gentile, creating in Himself "one new man, (so) making peace.

 

*********************************************************************************************************************************

 

In any case, I thank you for the opportunity to discuss the differences in our beliefs and wish you a Blessed & Happy New Year!

[Valin]

@righteousmomma @SrWoodchuck

 

The good news is....it doesn't really matter if the Immaculate Conception is true or not. I firmly believe when we are judged this is not going to be one of the things we are going to be asked. Its not what you know, but (literally) Who you know...and Who knows you. And a lot of people (myself included) are going to do a face palm and say...Of course, why didn't I see it!

[Valin]

The Hinge of Fate

Watler Russell Mead

12/28/13

 

Yesterday, we looked at why the gospels make such a point of saying that Jesus was born of a virgin. But there is more to the story than the absence of a biological father. What kind of home was Jesus born into? Who were Mary and Joseph, this couple who go to Bethlehem, can’t get a room, have the baby and ‘wrapped him in swaddling clothes and laid him in a manger.’ What is that supposed to be about?

 

To begin with the actual scene, ‘manger’ is the French word meaning “to eat”; a manger is a place where you put hay and similar things for the animals in a barn to eat. The swaddling clothes were used to wrap up the limbs of newborns so they wouldn’t injure themselves by moving too much. There are some today who believe there are benefits in this ancient and widespread practice, but it would be extremely unusual to hear contemporary Christians, even fundamentalists, arguing that this was the “biblical” way to treat infants and that every baby ought to get the same treatment. Compared to other world religions, Christianity is much less wedded to a set of cultural practices or ritual observances defined by its holy books; the “imitation of Christ” has almost always been understood as an imitation of his moral qualities rather than as a call to eat what he ate or wear what he wore.

 

Jesus was born in a shed, not at home, not in a palace, not in a hospital. (Not that anyone was born in a hospital in those days, or that any mothers had anesthesia. Something we moderns often forget about history is that until the 19th century childbirth everywhere was incredibly painful and incredibly dangerous. (It still is across many poor countries today.) Women giving birth entered a dark and terrifying tunnel of danger and pain whose presence shaped the life of rich and poor alike in ways that people living in modern, technological society can never fully comprehend.)

 

At one level the whole born in a manger thing is a message about the equality of everyone in God’s sight. He didn’t send Jesus into a palace. But when enthusiastic preachers talk about this scene as attesting to God’s identification with the poor, they get it wrong and they miss the real point of the story.

 

(Snip)

[righteousmomma]

Thank you, dear Woodchuck for

In any case, I thank you for the opportunity to discuss the differences in our beliefs and wish you a Blessed & Happy New Year

Same to you and your sweet E.

 

We [as Catholic's] believe that Mary was created without 'Original Sin' [within the Father's ability]......therefore a pure vessel. It is not "accepted" that she was incapable of sin....or that she never sinned in her lifetime. Although I don't think she did sin.[My belief]

 

 

We (as Protestants) believe that according to every indication in the Bible Mary was not created without original sin. Guess we will have to agree to disagree on this dogma.

 

I will leave this discussion with one of my many favorite Bible passages:

1 Peter

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 8 Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, 9 obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

 

May you and Valin and each of us be filled with His Joy - inexpressible and full of Glory for it is Christ in you, The Hope of Glory.